Dmitry Zakharchenko. Distorted Realities And Substitution Of Values

2024 Author: Harry Day | [email protected]. Last modified: 2023-12-17 15:43

(D. S.-Damian Sinaisky, I - interviewer)

I: The story with Dmitry Zakharchenko and a bribe of 8 billion rubles aroused a very big resonance. His colleagues, his direct management are very sorry that this happened to him. They are in a state of shock. Since all this is, as it were, behind their backs, and no one suspected that such a criminal story was unfolding there. At the same time, they speak very well of him, and they say that he never advertised his wealth, his involvement in big money, that he dressed modestly, did not boast of cars or accessories. That is, there was a respectable citizen, as Gaidai said in the film. But something happened and …

D. S.: Yes. And once again the audience is shocked, bewildered, surprised. Already really, the numbers themselves do not terrify, do not shock - they simply do not fit into the head of a normal person. Billion, second billion. Here the salary is 10 thousand, 20 thousand, well, 60 thousand, and there we are talking about hundreds of millions, about a billion. Yes, not about one billion - here's the second, third, eight already.

Q: It was not for nothing that later the journalists "invented" the equivalent - three suitcases of money. It's much easier that way

D. S.: Yes. This is in such a primitive communal: “How much is it in kilograms? Please weigh me in kilograms. In fact, this is a habit that cannot be used to. Conscious and unconscious are taught that yes is the norm with which we cannot put up with in any way. But as for Mr. Colonel himself, of course, he lives in several psychological realities. This is the same as we talked about the rich and the poor: rich people live in a different reality. They have a different coordinate system, different values. Their method of thinking consists of something else, they are in a completely different reality. They simply do not understand many things for a long time.

Accordingly, people in need, they do not understand how you can live like this. That is, this is our current stratification of society - terrifying, probably more abruptly than it was in the slave society. When everyone was the same - 200, 500 rubles a salary, and suddenly there were billions. Of course, this is an explosion, a psychological explosion. That is, we talked about fear, a person is lost, everything is lost. The sense of reality is lost - a person plunges into his imaginary reality, fantasy reality. And it seems that what seemed unrealizable or fabulous, it becomes a psychic reality. And the psychic reality of these people is much more real than the surrounding, actual reality. I come across this very often in therapy, in coaching. That is, a person lives in an imaginary reality, in his constructions and believes that this is reality.

Let's say the same, if we are talking about rich people, George Soros is a well-known speculator. You can call him whatever you like, but he is not destitute of genius, as they say. He brought down the pound sterling, and he spoke directly openly in an interview with a journalist: "What you think is reality is not reality." And he knows what he says. That is, here is the intersection of the internal imaginary reality - my ideas about the world - and what this world really is. There are a lot of contradictions here.

In this case, Mr. Colonel and other governors, and other gentlemen embezzlers, as they can be called, because they have stretched out their hands to the national treasury, they can also be divided, probably: the one who steals commercial money is one thing, and the one who steals people's money is probably different. Here is Peter the First, he managed to sentence two governors to death. But this was very rare. That is, indeed, we have traditions in some way. The governors, they were not paid their salaries and they were content with petitions, what people bring them. Of course, there were many governors with good, positive traits, outstanding, but there were, of course, the most disgusting traits. And now it is also preserved.

That is, this psychic reality of people who steal, who have lost track of money. As one client who was associated with a distillery told me: “Damian, I go there, they have money in sacks of cash. Right in the office, they don't even know how much money they have, they don't even count. Those were the times. Of course, this permissiveness, when the prosecutor could be counted - how old are you monthly? Everyone was on allowance. Everyone had their own ration. At the governor's, at the prosecutor's, at the head of the police. I spoke about this price list. Of course, this generation was 10-20 years ago, that is, it was formed with the corresponding psychological and moral values.

Therefore, look what these golden youth are doing! What is their coordinate system, thinking system, value system. These children, they grow up in an atmosphere "for you - any whim." A typewriter? What type of car are you? Let us buy you a real car. Ferrari or something else. Country? What country is there? Let us buy you a trip around the world.

That is, the atmosphere of such narcissism, omnipotence. Parents, after all, themselves were swollen from hunger, as is called in Soviet childhood, and now they are seized - of course, they want to create this golden cage. You can understand them, again - psychologically. Here I was starving, and you will swim in gold, in the literal sense of the word. Gold toilets, gold washstands. That is, everything that seemed to us absurd, the basest, ridiculous - this is all embodied, this is all embodied. All fantasies, apparently, childish, fantasies associated with gold - in such a wretched, primitive manner, they seem to be realizing.

Q: And at some point, these people get satisfaction? Put a gold toilet and that's it, now you can relax?

D. S.: Where is there - after all, the neighbor has a platinum toilet. And there is constant competition. The fact of the matter is that you can't get enough of it. That is, these are those base psychological mechanisms that can never be satisfied. They will be more hidden. That is, this need to enjoy, this is the so-called pleasure principle. Since childhood, we have had two principles of pleasure - we want: mom, I want; dad, I want. There is a principle of the reality of our social norms, which can tame this principle of pleasure a little. So, if you give us the will, then all these unconscious moments were realized and it probably would be something terrible that was happening. By the way, this is allowed in individual families.

Now, of course, after such, relatively speaking, such shame, humiliation of children who behave like this ugly, adults, parents begin to understand that this is simply ugly. This is exactly the same plebeianism, this cattle, in the literal sense, was raised. That is, aristocracy and our nobility, after all, not in money, but in morality, in values. Our aristocrats, pre-revolutionary, they looked centuries ahead. All hospitals in Moscow and St. Petersburg were built with donations from merchants and manufacturers. There was no government money. I'm not talking about temples, about churches, etc. That is, this is what aristocracy is. And when a person says: who does not have a billion - have you gone somewhere further away or something else, what kind of aristocracy is this? And this becomes the norm for others who begin to depend on them.

And you get inverted values. It would seem that noble desires - I want to live well, I want to live in comfort, I want not to need money - are beginning to distort. And a person, along with a distortion of the attitude towards this money, distorts his moral principles. And it turns out that the wife of an oligarch, 50 years old, comes to me. But I diagnose people and see - her look is extinct. I ask: "Did something happen to you?" She says, “Yes. How do you understand? " - "Tell me." And she says: “What I dreamed of as a child - fur coats, a house, an apartment, yachts, trips abroad - by my 50 years I had acquired all this. I have more than one fur coat, a whole wardrobe of fur coats. Car, home, abroad - please, whatever. But I have no meaning in life."

Or yesterday, literally, a client in America, a business woman, she said this thing: she remembered what her mother taught, showed the example of a neighbor who steals and lives richly: "This is how you should live, daughter." Do you understand? That is, what was good became evil. That is, values, white and black, have changed places and now they say - this is good, but this is bad. Although everything should be the other way around. That is, this illusion, an imaginary reality - it has become a true reality for these people.

Q: Did they become happy?

D. S.: Happy - no. They did not become happy. Moreover, the most extreme option is drug, alcohol addiction. This is the inner core, the concept of purpose, it is laid from birth. This is the meaning of life - to leave something behind.

Q: Purpose to steal is scary

DS: This is how to say … Themselves who steal, they understand that there is no bravery. And yet, returning to the gentlemen of the colonels: they also have such a passion - this is psychological, this is also laid down from childhood - a game. That is, the attitude towards life as a game. And the more risky the game is, the more addictive it is. That is, again distorted, inverted values. It would seem that a person who is so daring and brave can accomplish some kind of feat, but he spends these talents of his to commit this crime and show - "how cool I am." Here he has a million, and I have a billion.

Q: I have such a question. People who have innumerable states, their attitude to friendship, to love, to devotion, to fidelity - does it somehow change along with this? Or can they somehow keep it the same? A childhood friend, for example, and nothing that he is of a lower rank, but we meet there together, we have a drink. A wife, the only one for life and will never betray her, I will not leave. Or does it also lend itself to this distortion?

D. S.: Devaluation. Yes, devaluation. Yes, just a great question, top ten, Larissa. The way of life is changing, and, unfortunately, the values are changing. That is, it happens unconsciously, people do not control it. It is therefore also unconscious, because it cannot be realized. That is, all this is base, I repeat, it begins to influence. And the unconscious is already a science, Tatyana Chernigovskaya, has already proved that a person makes decisions, and 10 seconds before that, the unconscious, someone inside had already made a decision. And in consciousness it appears in 10 seconds. That is, I have made a decision? - No. Someone else. But who else made the decision? Who created it? Who modeled it? It is this matrix that we talked about, who? - this is a very important point.

Therefore, these people value so much, for example, communication with a coach, with a business coach. Because an informal person can talk about both his wife and businessmen. That is, for example, a businessman, he is a dollar millionaire, we conduct our coaching sessions with him. He is in Sao Paulo today, Hong Kong tomorrow. He has only one partner. So he speaks about him very evaluatively, condemning, whatever. That is, it would seem, a close friend, partner. Or there are some family moments, or related moments.

We can see this from Jobs as well. There was a film about outstanding people. Oddly enough, money is such a very powerful temptation. Not everyone can control it. This is exactly the moment when it is not a person who controls money, but money controls a person. This is such a fetish - the worship of money. Once they asked one oligarch: "When you earn the first million dollars, what's next?" - "The second million". And so, of course, ad infinitum. That is, this illusion of reality becomes true reality for them. And accordingly, by the age of 50, 60, 70, when the thunder breaks out, they begin to realize real.

I am leading the dynamics, I have clients and 20-year-olds, advanced - now a lot of them come to realize their purpose, values are genuine and false, desires, again, and there are 74-year-olds. And I see how the mood changes, people. At the age of 20 he can change something, create something. And at 74, you have to somehow understand a little differently. So, unfortunately, not everyone can withstand this temptation. Remember how in the fairy tale "Fire, Water and Copper Pipes"? These are just copper pipes. This is fame, this is a lot of money. This is a very terrible test. I had clients who said: "I am ready to sacrifice all this, just to return the last year, so that my mother would be alive, so that I could talk to her about what I could not tell her." Such insights happen at the end of life, when people are already adults.

That is, the striving for good, for simple human closeness, for trust - it remains. But it is suppressed at a certain stage. After all, a person now even does charity work with only one purpose - because it is profitable. Former vice president of Euroset, when he had an interview, he was asked: "Do you do charity work?" He said: “No,” “Why?”, “It is not profitable for us now. We are already living well”. That is, to make a charitable project so that it can be heard somewhere, and to rise, to earn more money. And since it is already unprofitable, I will not do charity work. This is how distorted the perception, values and reality in which we live. And each of us has our own unique psychic reality. The main thing is not to get lost, well, like that Alice.

I: The corporate situation around Dmitry Zakharchenko. Colleagues sympathize with him. They are perplexed how this could have happened, because no one in him saw such a loin that accumulated everything. What unites them at the moment? Fear that this could happen again with one of them, or really human sympathy? Because he behaved like, apparently, a good person

D. S.: Yes. Indeed, in their corporate environment, in their family, with their family members (close circle, close circle) they are, of course, very loyal, reliable, noble in their own way, decent. But this applies to their circle. Where it goes beyond the circle, there is no pity, sheer cynicism. This, again, is duplicity, mental splitting. This, as a last resort, can lead to very serious psychoses and breakdowns, including a schizophrenic moment. That is, they are no longer just neurotics, but neurotics, who are already moving towards psychotics, towards psychosis. And you can break, because you need to constantly live in two realities: here I live in this reality. Here I am at home, I wake up, etc. Here, I have a wife, I have children. I love them, of course. But I go out to employees or go out into society - there I already have other values. I should be in another reality. I am a different mask, I must play a different role. Hard. Therefore, colleagues can be understood. The fact is that he once again very much soiled his uniform, the honor of the uniform. It's scary for the officers. In such situations, people shot themselves - noblemen. When reputation, honor was lost. Now it is all too often. No matter how much our leaders want, I repeat, corruption flourishes so much here, at this level. Top officials, ministers, main departments. As they said in one film: "Where can the poor peasant go?"

As Deputy Prosecutor General Chaika and Deputy Prosecutor General Buksman said then, corruption is total. It is not partial, it is total. I have already quoted the President that out of 100% of the project financing budget, 50% goes to kickbacks. Look at the mentality of other republics, where the values are different. It's just the norm to take offerings. It doesn't matter, it's the Pension Fund, people's money. As one of the governors, in my opinion, Potemkin said to Catherine when she caught him stealing: “I just borrowed from the treasury. I'll give it back. He returned, we must pay tribute, threefold. Now the depreciated moral and moral values - what used to be called spiritual values - of course, have been devalued. When a bill becomes devalued, it is simply canceled, turned into waste paper.

And what to do with the value of nobility, decency, honesty, frankness? This is already difficult. A person is inside his psyche, inside his mental world, where close people are involved - he simply cannot go beyond the boundaries. He cannot look from the outside. In sessions, I often see this when you show him a different look: “Oh, I never would have thought about it in my life. And all my life …"

Therefore, going back to Zakharchenko's colleagues, this is, of course, the fear of identification. Colleagues put themselves in his place - what would I do in his place? And they would give me a billion, could I refuse? It’s difficult, it’s such a temptation. Especially when it is convincingly substantiated that it is the money of the banks, that it is pure, no one suffers, there is no violence. That is, they are looking for some kind of rationalizing beliefs that say - on the contrary, this is good. That's right. And here there is an important point: this will once again prompt a colleague to think - is he in his place?

Remember, there were polls of high school students - who would you like to be? There girls wanted to be currency prostitutes. The boys wanted to be at Gazprom or somewhere else to work, as civil servants …

Q: Look, there is such a moment, it seems to me important. After all, they could, for example, keep silent about this story with Zakharchenko. With this amount of 8.5 billion. Having voiced it, the state, as it were, says that, yes, not everything is in order with us. Yes. These are the amounts they steal from us. But let's do something about it. That is, they did not hesitate to make this fact public and make it public

D. S.: There are two points here. The authorities are great, of course. Probably, in Soviet times, in the old days, or in Yeltsin's, as we say, times - there a person would dust himself off and move on. How many articles there were, how many there were, and the man wiped himself off and went, as they say. Probably, in Soviet times, such facts would be silent. Because the Soviet system is the same … This could not have been in principle.

Now there is a cleansing. Even if it is a decade, the government shows that it is being purified. Even through this shame of their own, appointed "United Russia", their colleagues, etc. But, on the other hand, it is also additional pre-election points. But there is nothing wrong with that.

Q: That is, we try to be honest

D. S.: Yes. And this is good. For example, if they say that five-story buildings will be demolished because the mayor decided so - and, thank God. This is the essence, it seems to me, of the authorities, in order to demolish the five-story buildings, so that you are elected, so that you then move the panel nine-story buildings. To also give people normal housing, etc. That is, here, too, there is no need to go to extremes and reproach that a person, a government, is doing some kind of deed, which means that he is looking for some kind of benefit. No.

This is finally trying to correlate words and deeds. At least at some level. In this sense, it is a cleansing, albeit such a difficult one, with such reputational losses. That is, if they used to say that Russia is a bear or someone else there, a balalaika. Now they say it's a black hole of crime, etc. Well, unfortunately, yes. But we are speaking from the point of view of the present day and perspective. For our children and grandchildren. Now, if this continues quietly, then for the sake of this we should, indeed, try to be on the side of good.